Grief is a complex and unique experience that everyone navigates in their own way. It's crucial to provide support and understanding to those who are grieving, no matter what form their grief takes. By offering compassion, empathy, and a willingness to listen, we can create a more supportive environment for those who are dealing with loss. Remember, grief is not a linear process, and it's okay to seek out different forms of support to help you through your journey.

 

If you are struggling with grief, consider reaching out to a therapist, support group, or trusted loved ones to help you navigate this challenging time. And remember, it's okay to seek out help and take care of yourself during this difficult time. Grief is a natural and necessary part of the human experience, and with the right support and resources, you can heal and find a new normal after loss.

 

Remember, you are not alone in your grief journey. There are resources and support available to help you through this difficult time. Stay strong, be kind to yourself, and know that healing is possible.

We are all in this together.

Transcript: Grief Interview

[00:00:00] We're partnering with NoCD to raise awareness about OCD. OCD is more than what you see on TV and in the movies. Imagine having unwanted thoughts about your relationship stuck in your head all day, no matter how hard you try to make them go away. That's Relationship OCD. It comes with unrelenting intrusive images, thoughts, and urges about your partner or loved one.

Breaking the OCD cycle takes effective treatment. Go to nocd. com to get evidence based treatment. ​

 So today I'm talking with Dr. Heather Taylor, who is a psychologist out in the state of Washington. And I want to formally welcome her to the

show, bossing up overcoming OCD and

Heather,

I want to thank you. Or do you want me to call

you Heather or Dr. Taylor?

Oh my gosh. Of course. Yes. Call me Heather.

Heather and I have known each other for quite a while, and we've [00:01:00] been working together virtually on all things podcasting and building a private practice that's based on values.

And so Heather, thank you so much for talking with me today. I'm so excited for my audience to hear more about you and your podcast on grief.

Hi, I'm Erin, Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor and OCD Specialist. I'm also a Christian, wife, mom to three, and small business owner, helping those who are overwhelmed by stress to come out of that valley and enjoy the view. Reheat your coffee and pop in your AirPods to learn how to boss up to OCD.

So if you would take a second and tell us about your podcast and where we can

find it.

Absolutely. Like Erin said, I'm Dr. Heather Taylor. I am a licensed psychologist based out of Washington State. So [00:02:00] think Apple, not capital. And yes, I am a super passionate clinician about grief. And so I decided to take that passion and put it into a podcast to try to start changing the conversation about what grief can look like and how it's experience and not have to do it in this isolation or linear state.

And we'll flush those

concepts out a little bit more as Erin and talk. I'm very excited to be here and honored that Erin, you'd

have me on your podcast and I just, you're such a great clinician and you are such a good voice for OCD and getting the right kind of help for the, with the right kind of treatment.

I just admire what you do, so I'm really

Oh, thank you, Heather. Yeah. In listening to your podcast, it sounds like you're really trying to change the conversation around grief. I'm curious with your work and with your therapy practice and even, teaching college students, what have been some of those like common misconceptions that people have about grief ?

[00:03:00] Yeah so on my podcast, sorry, I forgot, realized I forgot to mention the name. It's called Grief is the New Normal podcast. It's on Spotify and Apple, and I'm trying to get it on a couple other stations. And yeah, so when you think about common misconceptions about grief. So many people want to put it in a

box.

They want it to be small because grief is painful. And so we try to lean away from it instead of leaning into it. When Kubler Ross,

she's one of the big researchers, came out with the five stages of grieving, she presented it like it was this linear

progression of emotions. So you start with denial, then bargaining, then anger and depression, and then acceptance.

What's really Confusing about that is our emotions don't actually occur in a line. They are more like a cyclone or a cesspool. Like you don't know which emotion is going to bubble up next because it's, it changes on the day, the week, the [00:04:00] season, the time of year, the holiday the developmental age and stage, the relationship you had with the person.

All of those things are different factors that contribute to how you're going to process your grief experience. And do you have any questions or comments about that?

No, I mean, I've

got plenty of questions for you, but

yeah, it's,

Okay. So that's probably one of the most common ones is the

myth that grief is linear and it's not.

And then the other piece, there's no time limit

on grief. So you think these stages are linear and that, Oh, well I'll be in bargaining for, four to six weeks and then I'm going to move into anger and, by Christmas I'll be in acceptance. And that's such a misconception.

There's, they just, swirl around each other. They're in these different circles. And we go through them over and over again. A metaphor I use often with my clients is of waves. And I know people use waves for lots of different things and in grief, it's no exception, right? So [00:05:00] say you have, this is you.

And then, you're standing on the beach and then suddenly this storm just starts rolling in and it's these big waves, big highs, big lows, and they're just hitting you over and over again. And the highs are really high, the lows are really low, and it just feels like they're nonstop. And what happens over time is it's almost like someone's taking their fingers at the end of each of the waves and they're pulling them out, they're stretching and lengthening them.

So the waves don't don't stop like the grief keeps coming. It's more like the acuity of the waves is lessened over time. And so it doesn't feel as painful over time. That doesn't mean it's going to stop though. The grief doesn't go away. We're not going to just suddenly wake up and be like, I'm, I'm okay.

I'm cured. That's not realistic. And that's an unfair, I think, expectation we put on ourselves and maybe on the people who are grieving around us.

Right, right.

Yeah,

And so in these misconceptions about [00:06:00] grief, it's like people want to put it in a box as

if they can just close the lid, forget about

it, and then it's also going to be the straight line of emotions and one thing after the

other. And really, grief can show up

at any point at any time and with any type of emotion.

And it can feel like a lot of waves, a lot

of ebbs

and flows, highs and lows.

Yeah.

absolutely. Well, I mean, think about how society does bereavement leave. It's three to like, sorry, you lost your mom. Here's three days off work, come back and just keep firing

Yeah. We'll see you

Monday.

Yeah. See you Monday. So sorry, and I think it,

the way our culture does grief is just so limited.

And it just doesn't take into account the intense pain, the disorientation, the brain fog. I mean, those first three to six weeks, you're still just in shock and numb and, you're forgetting things, you're disoriented, it's just, it's hard [00:07:00] to, make decisions because you're having decision fatigue from all of the, paperwork or process or funerally type memorial decisions you're having to make and you're just burned out from those, let alone

adjusting to this new world you're living in where someone you have an emotional attachment to is no longer physically here.

With folks who are experiencing a loss and they're going through some Grief, how do you recommend to them that they work through that or cope with the situation? Like I know everyone experiences grief differently, but what are some of those like more effective or possibly like standard of care

type of recommendations that you give for the

bereaved?

 

Yeah. I, I

think my students tease me all the time because I always say it depends. And so this is one of those. It depends situations. It's going to depend on the relationship you had with the person. So some loss is really complicated and maybe you didn't have a great

relationship with [00:08:00] that person.

So you're going to want to be able to process that loss differently because

it's not going to impact you in the same way as, losing a partner or losing a child or a sibling or

a parent or a grandparent or a coworker. Like those different relationships are going to influence. the type of support that

you're going to need after the loss. And then grief is also on a spectrum. And so some people are more of an instrumental grief on one side. It's more of that stoic, reserved, internal processing, thinking about it a lot versus the more emotive type grief, which is the externalized, Verbal processing, outwardly tearful type of grief. And so being able to show up in a therapy space with clinicians who understand that spectrum of grief and that you're going to fall in different places on that

spectrum. Depending on the day or different family members are going to show up differently and that gets to be okay too. So we're not playing the grief

comparison game.

[00:09:00] Yes. So like say you lose a caregiver or one of the parent figures and there's three kids and two of them are motors and one of them instrumental.

So one of them is going to be super stoic and quiet and reserved. The other two are going to be super outwardly tearful. And it's like that there's going to be comparison and confusion am I grieving wrong? Why does my grief look different? Am I doing it wrong? When really there's not one right or wrong way to grieve.

And I think that's the point of your question is there's not one right or wrong way to grieve. And I think because we're so behind in a lot of, evidence based treatments for grief, there isn't just one specific modality that's going to be the best. It's going to be you and a good therapeutic fit with your clinician, because 70 percent of therapeutic change is based on the fit.

So you need a clinician who's not afraid to say your person's name, who's going to let you go at your own pace, isn't going to rush you through your grief or avoid talking about it, because clinicians, [00:10:00] we aren't trained to do grief in graduate school. I had to go out and find it on my own. I volunteered with hospice and did bereavement trainings and I was a vigil volunteer.

I really wanted to understand grief, let alone with my own lived experience, so I just, I think there's not necessarily one right modality. So find a clinician that's a good fit for you and then work within that modality around your grief and that's going to be a

Right. Okay. So then, in this instance, when someone is dealing with grief, or maybe even a more complicated grief, it's going to depend on who they lost, the relationship they had with that person, And. if they're having a lot of struggles, they need to find a therapist who's the

right fit

for them. Yes. 110 percent

Absolutely. And grief support groups are also really helpful and so many are virtual these days, so you can find people who've maybe had a similar type loss because someone who had the slow goodbye loss like with a cancer [00:11:00] diagnosis or chronic illness is going to grieve differently than someone who

had a traumatic loss. Or had a

disenfranchised type of grief like death by suicide or substance use or, their, complicated relationship. So those different types of loss are going to want a

different group vibe.

Yeah. and the other thing that is changing the way for grief, and it may seem very minimal , but having grief as a diagnosis in our

Diagnostic book, so with that being said, like with OCD, I mean, you won't believe it, like insurance is just now coming around to find it as a quote unquote reimbursable diagnosis, even though

OCD is so debilitating and limiting, it's just now being recognized by insurance as

like a medical illness that needs treatment.

Oh, that's shocking to me.

anyway, I'm curious, Heather, [00:12:00] is the complicated grief diagnosis, is it reimbursable by

insurance, or have you noticed, what's been your experience with

that?

Yeah. So in the DSM, it's prolonged grief disorder and you actually can't diagnose it until it's been 12 months since the loss.

Whoa.

Yes, so it's the adjustment disorder with mixed depression and anxiety And if it's been, six months and there's maybe some of those major depressive disorder symptomology,

Or more of a generalized anxiety disorder presentation, because maybe there's a hyper fixation on one's

own mortality, then that might be a better diagnostic fit.

Or maybe they weren't even seeing you for grief. And they just happened to experience a loss while already in therapy or something else. From an insurance reimbursement standpoint, I've used it, but I have to have been working with someone for over a year for it to qualify.

Wow.

Yeah.

So again, just areas where our system [00:13:00] is lacking and needs better education and awareness to better support humans.

Yes. And another thing along the lines of, it depends, I'm curious to hear how grief can show up in those different life stages, like for kids, teens, and adults. Like I foresee that it can be very different. So what have you noticed about how grief manifests in all those different life

stages?

Great question. we could do a whole episode just on grief and child and adolescence. So one of my, so kids are actually my favorite grievers. I know that's going to sound really weird and I have a reason for it. So there's a visualization that I like to

use. I'm sure you're familiar with like old school oscillating

kitchen fans, like the little white ones that were in your grandma's kitchen.

They're standing and they just go back

and forth. Yes. So that's one of the Best parts of grief work is learning how to be an oscillating kitchen [00:14:00] fan. You're oscillating

between grief

work and restorative work. So the grief work is that the dark, the hard, the naming, the feelings, the remembering, the doing rituals, things like that, that are helping you feel connected to your loved one.

And then you oscillate work and that's like self care and movement and daily hygiene and connecting and socializing. The things that help you keep wanting to live the light. And so kids are brilliant at this. I be working with a mom and her five year old will come in and be like, I'm really sad.

I miss dad. Can I have a popsicle? And it's like the kids just automatically know that. Okay, I named my feeling. I'm full. I've hit my max that I can say about my grief. I'm going to go do something life giving something restorative. Like I want to popsicle.

I'm going to go play with my Legos. , that's totally normal and developmentally appropriate. They're not doing anything wrong. The mom is crushed okay, they said they're sad, but then they want to go play with toys. Are they being dismissive? Is something wrong? It's no, they just [00:15:00] have awareness that they've hit the limit and then they need to go do something to self care and soothe and they're off.

And so I think young kids do that pretty well. If they have a hard time finding that balance, that's where you want to probably bring in some outside support. If they're really stuck in the sad or they're really stuck in the not. Talking about the grief stuff because it stays in our bodies, right?

We learned that from Bessel Van Der Kolk's Body Keeps the Score and all of that. Our bodies remember all of that grief stuff and so if we don't process out the pain, metabolize it out, it's going to just stay there and that can lead to more of the chronic health stuff. And then like with teenagers, who are they looking to relate to?

They're looking to relate to their peers. They're not looking to relate to adults. And so putting, like giving them the opportunity to be in a, peer aged grief support group is going to be really helpful because they're wanting to not feel othered because when you're a teen, you want to fit in with your friends.

And if you're experiencing a significant loss, [00:16:00] that's going to make you feel different. And it's also maybe going to make you have less tolerance for more superficial teenage things. Like I just lost my dad and my best friend is. crying about not finding the right prom dress. Like how, like, how does that, I feel like my friends just don't get it.

I feel unseen. So having awareness that they're not necessarily looking to adults for validation, they're looking to their friends. So how can we give them opportunities to connect with similar

aged

I could see where a teen grief group would be helpful because they're all going through the same thing whereas your day to day friends, they're afraid to talk about it or don't know what to

say. So

before we get into the next set of questions, let's take a break and hear a word

from our sponsor.

We're partnering with NoCD to raise awareness about OCD. OCD is more than what you see on TV and in the movies. Imagine having unwanted thoughts about your relationship stuck in your head all day, no matter how hard you try to make them [00:17:00] go away. That's Relationship OCD. It comes with unrelenting, intrusive images, thoughts, and urges about your partner or loved one.

If you think you may be struggling with Relationship OCD, contact KnowCD. There's hope. NOCD offers effective, affordable, and convenient OCD therapy. NOCD therapists are trained in exposure response prevention therapy, the gold standard treatment for OCD. With NOCD, you can do virtual, live, face to face video sessions with one of their licensed specialty trained therapists.

It's affordable and they accept most major insurance plans. Breaking the relationship OCD cycle takes effective treatment. To get started with NoCD, go to nocd. com slash savage.

Okay. We were talking about

the teen grief group and how that's very helpful for kids who are going through loss and how your day to day friends may be avoidant or not know what to say.

So my next question was , how [00:18:00] do you support your friend?

Yeah, one of the most important takeaways about how to support our people when they're grieving is remembering we can't fix it.

 this is not something where you're going to have a magic phrase, a magic wand, a magic casserole that's going to just suddenly make this situation okay.

So true. I mean, how many times have you shown up to someone's house And it's like, I've never seen so many casseroles in my life.

 

Don't get me wrong. Bring the food. The food is helpful because we're forgetting to eat when we're in those early grief stages. So the casseroles are helpful, but it's not going to fix it. It's not going to,

no fairy

Like someone.

There's no fairy dust in there.

If someone has died,

like that's hard and painful. In our culture, we are very fix it oriented and if I just keep pushing through, if I just do this, if I just do this, if I follow this plan, then I'm going to get over

it. And it's this isn't something to get [00:19:00] over. It's something to learn how to move through in a way that feels good.

And so I think if you're going to show up for people in a season of grief, remember that you can't fix it. So just showing up is enough. Send the text. I'm thinking of you. How are you in this moment? Not like, how's it going? Like it's going crappy. That's how the that's the automatic thought, right?

It's not going good. Like someone I love just died. It's not good, but how am I in this moment? I might be okay. I might be watching a show. I might, have, showered today. That's positive. So send the text. Still show up, just have limited expectations. Someone made a really funny grief meme based on the new mean girls coming out.

I don't know if you remember if you were a mean girls fan, but it was like, get in loser. We're going to the mall. Be that friend, show up at their house. Hey, get in. We're going to go get coffee, you know, you're at the grocery store. Hey, I'm buying dinner. Can I bring you a bag of groceries?

Are you at home? I'm stopping by. Force your presence. So [00:20:00] that people will feel more comfortable to invite you into their grief space.

Yeah, such a good point. And it reminds me of some of the ladies I've worked with they've experienced grief in the sense of a hysterectomy and so the loss of not having children and the grief that brought and how society is not comfortable in talking

about, the loss of what never

Yeah.

And

Yeah.

ladies Talk about how it was so isolating and it felt invalidating

that no one ever named their loss or said anything directly about sorry for your experience or what your family's going through.

So that severed some friendships for them. Grief really extends into so many areas of life. From what I've seen and it sounds like you have the same mindset as well. It's it's better to say something just be direct and straightforward. And honestly, [00:21:00] go in there with good intentions and a good heart.

Well, and no, you don't have to say the

perfect thing because it's not a perfect situation. It's okay to be messy in this

Oh, I love that. It's okay to be

messy.

Yes. And I mean, with your gals who had hysterectomies, it's that's one of those non death

losses. Right. And so there's a

disenfranchisement there. There's a lack of validity.

And it's

I just want someone to name it.

Think of the relief we

feel when someone says

how are you doing with

Sally's loss?

What was one of your favorite memories with Sally?

And like, how good that feels when someone asks us, because it's our responsibility to carry their names now that they're no longer

physically here. And when people ask us about them there's space to be for them to be remembered that feels so good. And that someone cares enough to ask so say their names, send the text, bring the foods.

Right.

I'm curious too, about your advice for people who

might [00:22:00] be really struggling after a loss as far as finding their meaning and purpose in life, because it seems like it's a very common human experience whenever we lose someone who's very close to us. And they're like,

what's the point? They're in that very deep, depressive state and they're hopeless. So what is your work with people who are in that space?

Yeah, so you know there's this set of common grief reactions we work with and we have physical reactions, emotional, mental, social, behavioral, and then spiritual existential and within that category are those, What's the point of all this? How do I make meaning from this? What's my purpose now?

Everything I was doing felt superficial and I've had this loss, and it

really heightens that. Like, how do I pivot? How do I do something different? So when we experience, a loss, it can have a world altering shift on us. It brings to light the things of importance and that have weight [00:23:00] and we can Help support our clients feel empowered to maybe choose a different path.

So I experienced my loss about 14 and a half years ago. I lost my younger brother quite

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.

Thank you. I Was applying to go to school to be a librarian. So I was trying to get my master's in library science and I'm at the same time trying to find my own grief therapist, and I had such a frustrating experience.

I went through three different clinicians. One of them made me watch vHS tapes.

On from like Cloud and Townsend, like their grief books. I'm like, okay, this doesn't feel like this fits. Like another one would never say their name. Wouldn't say my brother's name. Like we talked about everything except for my grief, which was

I bet the air felt thick, because you can

tell when there's something not

being said.

Yes. Well, and I it was

my first experience with therapy, so I didn't know what I was doing or what to expect. Didn't realize it was not a good fit. And then I don't [00:24:00] remember why the third one didn't work out. I still just remember the VHS tapes and I was just like, anyway, so I got, I was really frustrated.

I was like, fine, I'm going to go back to school and I'm going to become a grief therapist. I'm 14 and a half years out from that. I volunteered with hospice. I did vigil volunteering. I did every single project in grad school on grief.

Like I was the grief girl in my cohort.

Just that's that's what's energized me, what I'm passionate about because culturally we just do grief so bad. So I think to go back, we do, and I'm, we're trying, I'm trying to help voice change to do grief differently, to do it

you I feel the momentum and the waves of positivity coming where we're going to be talking about this more. And so it sounds like Heather, with your experience, you use your loss as a way and a meaning, you found

meaning and purpose by trying to help

others. So it's not that everyone needs to be a grief therapist or a grief specialist,

No, not at all. grief can be such a powerful [00:25:00] motivator to try to create better situations for those that come after us. One of my colleagues, she did her dissertation on a woman who founded a, foundation after the loss of her child.

And it was based on their experience with that disease. we have all these different walks for

different diseases , chronic illnesses , conditions and things. a lot of people do find meaning by trying to make things better for others.

also it's okay if you need to think smaller than that, like when I'm feeling really stuck or working with a client who's really stuck in their grief, I pull onKC Davis, she wrote the how to keep house while drowning.

So good. If you're neurodivergent, it's an excellent read. And it's just look around your room. What are five things that I can pick up? And just if that feels many, okay, what are three things that I can pick up? Okay. What's one thing that I can pick up just to start building some momentum to help again, moving forward because grief, it wants us to feel stuck and isolated and [00:26:00]

So many parallels

with OCD too.

and so being creative, having those support people that will text you to help kind of Hey. Have you showered today? Who are those safe people to send you that text to ask? Because, it's such a simple act and yet for so many people, I mean, and I know you know this from your OCD work, like a shower can be a really big thing that we build up in our heads.

And if we're already feeling stuck and hopeless, like that can feel insurmountable. So who are our safe people to help us

And those safe people that will celebrate those wins with you.

Yep,

 so when someone is experiencing those challenges and getting those day to day or daily responsibilities accomplished, it sounds like having people in your To help encourage you, maybe keep you accountable in a loving way.

absolutely. Loving, not

Right. Yes.

Yes. And in a way [00:27:00] that is going to help you feel like you accomplished something and they're going to say, I'm proud of you for just

going out.

Yeah. Don't worry about your hair or your makeup. Just go out girl.

Yeah. How about the self care? What are some things that

the individual person can do?

Let's say it's an adult, right? They're a little bit more aware and recognize the need for self care. I've already published the episode on self care

with Mother's Day

and everything.

What are your ideas

about

self care for people who are

grieving?

Yeah, I mentioned earlier kind of those common grief reactions. I have a cool handout. I'll send it to you. And if you want to put it in the show notes because it's a really helpful tool. There's the six different categories of how grief can manifest. So I think coming up with self care tools, depending on which category your grief is showing up in the most.

So if you're having a lot more physical manifestation of grief, so lots [00:28:00] of body aches, tension, GI stuff fatigue, then, maybe I'm going to take an extra long bath or do some aromatherapy or go to bed two hours earlier because my body just needs some more sleep.

So things like that, that are addressing the physical needs versus, someone whose grief is showing up socially where they're withdrawing. They're not feeling connected to anyone. Okay, so maybe self care is I'm going to text that safe friend for a cup of coffee or, I'm going to have those three people on standby.

Cause I used to call my mom when I get in the car and now I don't have someone to call when I get in the car. And so I need my three safe friends that I can just call and they're going to answer because I'm in the car and I'm working through losing my mom, so that's, That can be self care too.

It doesn't have to just be going to the spa or, going retail therapy. Like those aren't necessarily self care. It's okay, I'm gonna make myself a special coffee in the morning because that helps me get out of bed. That's gonna be [00:29:00] my self care for the morning. So having different ideas for the different categories can be really helpful.

and can you explain what it means when someone feels othered?

 

 

When someone is going through grief and loss, we can call it post traumatic growth. when you're in a season of post traumatic growth, you can feel very different than the people operating around you not going through a season of loss or grief so say your loss happens around Christmas time and you have to go get eggs at the grocery store and the checkout gal is like, Oh, how are you this holiday season?

And like your partner

just died. And it's so it's almost like a limited BS tolerance for the superficiality of others. And so you feel different, you feel othered from the general population because they're not grieving, they're not in active grief

yeah, it's almost like you're, in a totally different headspace a different

universe

Yeah, you're living in a [00:30:00] new world. So Mary Frances O'Connor, she does a lot of brain research on grief and her studies showed that literally your brain landscape changes when you're in a season of bereavement in the memory area, in cognition, like your brain is literally changed by loss. So it makes sense that we're trying to adjust to the new normal

of the world around us because it just feels so different why we feel othered within and we're trying to figure out who am I now on the other side of

Yeah.

We're partnering with NoCD to raise awareness about OCD. OCD is more than what you see on TV and in the movies. Imagine having unwanted thoughts about your relationship stuck in your head all day, no matter how hard you try to make them go away. That's Relationship OCD. It comes with unrelenting intrusive images, thoughts, and urges about your partner or loved one.

Breaking the OCD cycle takes effective treatment. Go to [00:31:00] nocd. com to get evidence based treatment.​

 Well, Heather, thank you so much for taking the time to speak today. It was really informative and encouraging to hear about how we can help change that conversation about grief. if the audience wants to hear more About grief. They would go to your podcast

on Apple or Spotify and it's called grief is

the new normal.

Yes. Grief is the new normal podcast and you can also follow along on Instagram same name. And then I have a partner and we do this thing called the morning movement and we are grief educators and offer webinars about understanding grief and are doing some more

specialized grief workshops in the future.

So stay tuned for

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Erin. It was great

chatting with you

All right, all right, all right. Well, I hope you all enjoy the conversation between Dr. [00:32:00] Heather Taylor and I. Come back next week to hear about all things that get me riled up about therapy and the treatment of OCD.

If you're wanting to grab a copy of Dr. Heather Taylor's handout, I'll have that on my website and you can find it on my blog. And the blog title is going to be Grief is the New Normal. And I'm now announcing some open slots for people located in Virginia. That's right. If you're located in Virginia and are looking for treatment for OCD, hit me up, go to value driven therapy. com and click book your consult to schedule your free 15 minute video call with me today.

[00:33:00]