Unmasking the Inner Self: Malisa's Path to Self-Love and Healing
In today’s special episode of Bossing Up Overcoming OCD, I sit down with Melissa Heppner, host of the Emotionally Unavailable podcast. Melissa shares her transformative journey from hospice social worker to a renowned therapist and podcast host. We discuss the challenges she faced, including childhood and religious trauma, and how she built self-love, trust, and boundaries. We also dive into women's issues like generational trauma and societal programming. Plus, Melissa opens up about the powerful moment of gratitude towards herself and the ongoing process of self-compassion. Join us for an authentic conversation that could light up your path toward self-growth.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
01:08 Sponsor Message: Thrizer
02:01 Starting the Conversation with Melissa
02:47 Melissa's Career Journey
04:54 Challenges in Education and Burnout
06:17 Healing and Self-Love
07:03 Religious Trauma and Self-Worth
09:06 Empowerment and Self-Trust
13:25 Women's Vulnerability and Societal Expectations
20:07 Embracing Feminism and Authenticity
21:07 Teaching Alignment and Authority
22:07 Finding and Sharing Your Light
23:25 Trusting Intuition and Surrender
26:49 Overcoming People-Pleasing
36:12 Healing Generational Trauma
39:46 Pursuing Purpose and Passion
43:17 Conclusion and Resources
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Erin H. Davis: [00:00:00] Get this. Okay. Well, Melissa, I'm super excited to be chatting with you today. And, um, it's just a pleasure to be in the same room with you, honestly.
Malisa Hepner: Oh, you're so sweet. Thank you. You look gorgeous too.
Erin H. Davis: Oh, thank you. Well, so Melissa, you are the podcast host of the Emotionally Unavailable show. Super fabulous show.
And it seems to be centered around a lot of people's own stories and the way they have overcome something and really have been a champion in their own life. And you're also a social worker. Is that right? Thank you.
Malisa Hepner: Yep. I am.
Erin H. Davis: Awesome. So tell me more about you or, you know, some things, you know, that led you into podcasting.
Malisa Hepner: Well, I mean, gosh, everything led me into podcasting probably because I've wanted to be a star my whole life, but, um, you are a star. Thank you so much. Thank you. Uh, you know, I okay. So truthfully, I've had such a wild career. If I look back, I mean, not, I don't know, maybe wild. It's been a wild ride, I'll say.
So yes, my background is actually in hospice social work mostly. And then, um, I got kind of burned out on that because Honestly, the thing for me was I got tired of feeling unsafe in the environment because I was going in strangers homes, you know, and, um, because of who I am and what I can tolerate, I always got the territories where it was extra scary.
You know what I mean? And so it just got to where like the older I got and I had my last kid. While I did that job, I was pregnant, putting myself in situations that didn't feel safe. I got kind of burnout. So I left that. And because of my middle child who has all kinds of diagnoses and trouble in school his entire life, um, I was like, I want to be the type of teacher I wish my son had.
And I live in a state. Where you now no longer even have to have a degree to be a teacher, but we won't go into that. Um, it was very easy to in the like inner city to become what's called emergency certified and become a teacher immediately. I knew that was not. Smart that I did that. I do believe it to be on my path, but it was an incredibly difficult job.
I weigh under what it would take. Um, but I did realize, okay, I'm really good at connecting with these kids. I just, me and math are not friends. You know what I mean? So I had fifth grade and I loved them. So much inner city kids, like we're bonding, but I could not teach them to save my life. So I was like, you know what, I'm going to switch over to something more suitable for me.
And I did school counseling for four years. Yes. State of education in America is in crisis and I reached burnout very quickly. Um, what I learned about education is that, and I mean this from a place of love and compassion truly, but it is, it calls to the codependent. It really does.
Erin H. Davis: Ooh. Interesting.
Malisa Hepner: Amazing. Because I had boundaries because listen, I've been for all these years, I know about boundaries in the workplace, you know, yes, I was very unpopular, very unpopular and the dynamic between each role within education really. Pits, it's like your boss at the top of the state of education, regardless of who we have right now, who truly is a narcissist.
But like, if you think of narcissist models, that's kind of how it is. And they pit you against each other and they do things like, thank you so much. So and so and so and so for filling out the survey, you know, it's just things like that. It was, it was, it was not healthy at all. I didn't go into that job in a healthy place.
I left it. In a place where I had crumbled and I, I hit like a mental health crisis. Oh
Erin H. Davis: my
Malisa Hepner: goodness. Burnout in every area of my life. And I was like, okay, it's time to address the dissatisfaction in our lives. And what is my role in this? And how can I heal? Finally, you know, I, I had a really extensive history of childhood trauma.
So yes, there's been healing along the way, obviously, because I was a functioning and adult, but it. It. It wasn't enough. And so when I got to that place, I just was like, all right, what, how do we heal? What are our dreams? How can we pursue ourselves relentlessly without stopping? Wow. So that's what led me.
I mean, I felt silenced my whole life. I love to talk. So I was like. podcast.
Erin H. Davis: Uh huh. Yes. And I enjoy listening to your podcast and it sounds like you've been through a lot of things and you have persevered and you have a lot of resilience about you. And I was also curious based upon the [00:05:00] conversations we've had in the past, like you've had some religious trauma.
Malisa Hepner: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I grew up in Oklahoma, you know, it's really fundamentalist here. No matter what you believe, like it, you can go to the most relaxed environment and it's still going to, I think, I think the part that hurt me the very most, if I, once I uncovered all of my shame was the premise that I was born dirty, unclean and unworthy, and there was nothing I could ever do to earn those things.
That was really the message that I was given and that any worth and value that I could accrue could only be done through the eyes of God. And so it was, it was really tricky kind of coming to a place. Well, and you know, everything in, in, in religion tells us. That servitude to our own demise is our purpose on this earth for me coming to a place where I say no, I think my purpose on this earth was to finally come home to myself and understand that.
I need to have unequivocal, unconditional love, compassion for myself in every moment, even the worst ones, even though I'm so mean to myself or someone else, those moments, I'm still just as worthy, still just as loved, just as valuable. And that's kind of. Lately been my focus. Like I, you know how things evolve over and over and you become a new creation, like the next month.
That's my current focus is unequivocal, unconditional regard.
Erin H. Davis: Love it. Well, and so many people, especially in the OCD space, they get stuck on pleasing their higher power, because
Malisa Hepner: you're
Erin H. Davis: right. Like there's nothing you can do. To truly please God, you know, and people get very stressed out about that. So it, it can be challenging.
So like, well, yeah. How did you get to that place of like, I'm just going to love myself with unconditional positive regard?
Malisa Hepner: Well, you know, it's an ongoing process. I'm not going to lie because as you said that I just had an aha moment when you said pleasing your higher power. Like actually like, I'm like, Full body chills right now, because what I found myself doing, even in this more spiritual woo woo place that I am like, it was like probably last month, um, something good happened.
And, and I said, thank you, but I wasn't saying thank you to myself. And there's so many times that I'm thinking the universe or whatever you want to call your higher power. Um, and I stopped and I said, Melissa, maybe. Maybe that gratitude supposed to go to you, babe, you, you got up every day, you, you hustle.
Yes. You've overcome technology issues. I mean, if you even understood the amount of crying and I mean, wailing when I first started this podcast, because of all. Tech issues because I decided perfect is the enemy of good. And I do not care if this is perfect. I'm doing what I love to do and I'm going to put it out there.
I haven't done those early episodes again. Like I left them, they are ugly, but they are, and they, and they tell you the story of, of how I got there and how this has evolved and I'm leaving them. But. Maybe that's the lesson. Like I did that. I did that. And if love for yourself is the highest frequency is gratitude for yourself, not part of that, you know, and, and so it's ongoing where I say, no, no, no.
I mean, that's fine. Like, yes. Thank you. Higher power for supporting my presence on this earth. Yes. Yes. That, but also thank you, Melissa, for having. The resilience for creating, I will say the resilience within yourself every minute of every day, every single challenge, dumb things like the computer I'm using currently has a thing where it loves to, if I move my mouse automatically go to the X to close out the window.
And if I'm not a hundred percent focused, it will close out during recordings during work. It doesn't matter. I was working on my book yesterday and it literally closed 30 times. And I was like, I'm not going to let you stop me. And I kept going. And that's the stuff. And it is evolving every day. I'm learning more about, Oh, that was a sneaky way that you were not loving yourself or having gratitude for yourself.
But even like, you know, I told a story on my show not long ago, I was scammed by some people. Um, they sent a text saying, Hey, it's your bank. Did you spend money [00:10:00] in Dallas, Texas? And I was like, no. And I say no immediately on the text. They say, great. We're going to call you. And the second the phone rang, I picked it up and I audibly heard, don't you give them your information?
Erin H. Davis: And I was like,
Malisa Hepner: Oh my gosh, you're right. And so they said, blah, blah, blah. And I said, I'd really feel more comfortable speaking to my bank directly. Like me calling them. They hung up. I couldn't even finish the sentence. I said, I'd feel more comfortable. Yes. And they hung up and I was like, Oh, thank you. But I was.
I, at that time, you know, I've lost both my parents. And so at that time I was like, thank you, mom, you know, or whatever. But then I was like, stop it. That was your voice. That was your voice.
Erin H. Davis: Oh, I hear it now. You know what I mean? You are giving yourself more credit because that's not something you used to do.
Right.
Malisa Hepner: It was on everything external of me. And then just that, like, am I doing enough universe? Like, I'm sorry that I had this negative thought, please don't punish me. It's that whole cycle over and over. So that's why I say it's an evolution, but you know, this version of me talking to you in this moment is very clear on what I deserve, but you know, I mean, we have all this baggage and it's, it's gonna, it's gonna interfere sometimes, but just as long as you can come back to center.
Erin H. Davis: Yes. Well, and I totally hear you on the podcasting struggles because in the very beginning, I didn't know how to work my mic. In fact, I didn't even have like a fancy mic to start.
Malisa Hepner: Well, that's why I don't use them anymore because it's caused so many, any issues that happen, happen related to like me trying to use something new.
And so I'm like, eventually we'll come back to this, but right now it's not working. So we're just going to go straight on the computer.
Erin H. Davis: Yeah. And it's. A lot. I appreciate you being so open and vulnerable because the world needs more of that. And women have a hard time sharing that vulnerability. Oh, yes.
Malisa Hepner: I mean, and I'm the number one.
I mean, you know, it's really easy in an environment like this for me to say anything, honestly, that's the truth. But, but if I go to my husband to say, I'm stressed, that's hard for me, or to say, Shoot. I'm sorry. You know, that's a real vulnerable spot for me is to, to say, I'm sorry. Or even just ask for help that, that feeling of I'm too much comes out a lot whenever I go to ask for help.
And I have to overcome that every single time and I don't always overcome it. And sometimes I do it wrong. And I continue that little hinty thing that sometimes we like to do instead of just coming out and directly saying, but yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah. I always say it starts with one decision and then a confirmation of that decision.
Every time it comes up, you know, I'm still going to have the negative self talk. I just have to stop it and revise it in a moment. You know, I'm still going to have the fear. I just have to stop and talk to myself in the moment. It's just confirming those decisions over and over.
Erin H. Davis: Yeah, exactly. I love how you're putting that because it's like.
Yeah, these thoughts are going to come, but I'm going to handle it different. I'm going to respond to it differently and your responses now are. More about this self trust and I've been on this kick with self trust. Yes. Your
Malisa Hepner: last episode, I was like resonating with it so hard because yes, the trust.
Erin H. Davis: Yeah.
And what do you think it is with women in your opinion? Like why we have such a hard time in being vulnerable, like telling our spouse, Hey, I'm stressed, or I don't know how to do this, or can you help me with this? Like, why do women. Get so hung up on that part of vulnerability.
Malisa Hepner: Well, somewhere along the way, we were programmed to believe that We're supposed to be superhuman, that
Erin H. Davis: we,
Malisa Hepner: that we can get such adrenaline that we can lift a car off our child.
You know what I mean? We are, do you, you've heard the stories? Yes. Programmed to believe that is you. That's what you have in you. Go be that. Well, hey, I am a superhero. Sometimes. And then there's times that I'm just a human and I'm perfect at all of it. You know what I mean? Because I'm so imperfect at anything that I do that in humans are supposed to be imperfect.
So I'm doing a perfect job at that. But yeah, I think that, I think that we were programmed to believe that we should be superhuman, but I also think women in particular. In childhood are raised to turn off to intuition because we are to, well, how many times were we forced to hug somebody? We didn't want to hug.
Yeah. So right there, we just lost agency over our body. And somebody told us that we don't get [00:15:00] control over who touches us.
Erin H. Davis: Yeah. And then it's not nice to say no to hugs.
Malisa Hepner: Yes. And that it's more appropriate to make this person feel comfortable by hugging them when everything in our body says, I do not want you to touch me.
Then it is to stand in our authority and say, I, I wouldn't like the hug right now and maybe make them uncomfortable. It's things like that that our parents did over and over. And I'll tell you why that makes me mad. They only did it because they wanted that person to say, you're raising them, right?
Erin H. Davis: Self serving.
Malisa Hepner: Yes. That is the only reason they did the entire generation, which I talk a lot of smack about, and I'm not going to do that right now, but that was it. And we were told. You know why you're here? You exist to serve your parents and pay an eternal debt of gratitude that will never be wiped clean. I put you on this earth, I raised you, you now owe me.
And maybe like if you had nice non narcissistic parents, it didn't. What those weren't the words, but baby, I promise you that was the message. And that was their belief system is that, Oh, now it's my turn to be repaid back by my kids. Cause I have been an indentured servant to my parents my whole life.
It's a cycle that's been repeating. And again, as long as it gets you to turn off to your voice. Then what? There's no trust ever from then on because I rely on somebody else to tell me when I can be touched, when I can speak. I don't even make my daughter and it is uncomfortable. I'm not going to lie to you.
It is so uncomfortable. But if we're in public and you know how people The boomers love to call little girls pretty. They love it.
Erin H. Davis: Yes. And
Malisa Hepner: so they come up and they say, Oh, look at your pretty hair. She will stare at them. She's not trying to be rude. She's uncomfortable, but I have told her it's not our job to make them comfortable.
You're uncomfortable, right? Well, why does their comfort matter more than yours? You love it. Thank you. Or you don't have to, it's up to you. And I'm going to support you in that moment. And I'll be like, come on little baby. You know, it's been an evolution. She will just look at them like, please go. You know, she's not comfortable.
She's shaking. She doesn't want to talk to you. You didn't mean any harm by it. And that was right. And, and, and we do appreciate the compliment when we leave, we're going to say that was nice for a little awkward, you know, but she's not going to say thank you to you. And I'm not making her.
Erin H. Davis: Yeah. And it's unbelievable how many times, I'm sure you run into this, like, do you still do client work?
Malisa Hepner: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Erin H. Davis: So how many times we have to say to women, like, you're not responsible for other people's feelings.
Malisa Hepner: That exact phrase. That exact phrase. You're not responsible. Why do you feel like you're responsible for that? Yes.
Erin H. Davis: Because we've been programmed. Now, you know, bringing it full circle.
Malisa Hepner: Absolutely. We run around anticipating the needs of everyone around us, making sure some of that's because our mamas were crazy, you know, and you knew like what to look out for, you know, but some of that's just because like, that's, that's what they expected. They, and it, and it wasn't just subtle programming.
It was straight up. Here's your role in this family.
Erin H. Davis: It is
Malisa Hepner: to do this.
Erin H. Davis: And if you don't do this, you're disappointing us.
Malisa Hepner: Oh, yes. And, and the amount of shame and guilt applied to huge. Yeah. That was like, yeah. Are we not going to doubt ourselves?
Erin H. Davis: Yeah. Yeah. And kind of like you're saying whenever. Your parental figures are giving you this instruction and direction.
They're essentially telling you, ignore your intuition, ignore your thoughts, ignore your feelings. Put those aside,
Malisa Hepner: rub some dirt on it and walk it off.
Erin H. Davis: Yeah. Because you need to take care of other people's feelings.
Malisa Hepner: That's what's
Erin H. Davis: important.
Malisa Hepner: Uh, and I, it's, it's interesting to me because, um, you know, I've moved more into like a feminist space in my spirit because I used to be really closed off to that.
But it's interesting to me around some people that I know that called themselves feminist, still perpetuating Some of these cycles, I do not, this is not like, like, I'm not degrading anyone. We all have our own process and evolution. And this is just where I am versus where they are. But like, I know someone in my personal life that I'm like, why are you still requiring your adult daughter to show up in an inauthentic manner to please somebody?
Like I, I, you are doing it and you are forcing your adult daughter to do it. And they are both very much adults. And I just don't understand it. I don't because I don't want anyone in my life to live anything, any part of their life out of alignment with who they are. So this is how we can teach others.
Wow. To live in alignment is, even the older generations [00:20:00] can watch us and go, you're right. Wow. I never thought of it that way. If you step into your authority, they get to see what that looks like and you're doing it for them too. They didn't do this because they just were born horrible people. It was done to them.
And worse. So like, let's love ourselves so much that maybe those older generations of women can feel a little bit of love for themselves too, before they go off of this earth, spent their entire existence in this way. And they're not changing. If we can just be an example and be the light instead of perpetuating this endless cycle.
Erin H. Davis: Yeah, I feel like we have known each other like forever because that's totally my mantra. I just want to be a light for people. Yes,
Malisa Hepner: me too. That is it. Yeah, that's why my program is called the Luminary, like everything about what I'm doing and that's, that's kind of like, you know, through the evolution of the show, I'm like, okay, that's.
That's kind of it. Like I found my light. I'm sharing it with others. I want to talk to people who are doing the same and, and, and so now I've, I've even had a little better direction of how to steer those conversations because I'm like, tell me about your light. You know what I mean? Like, I know that that's the work we're all doing in this space.
We found something that we feel so passionate about and it helped us so much and now we want to share it with others. And that truly is. That's always been who I am is to go through something, figure it out, live through it, and then share it with others. Because that's kind of my gift. That's where my gift lies is to use my voice.
Yes. To show people what I've gone through and how I went through it and how they can too. Cause I'm not, yes, I'm magical and I am, and I am me and I am unique and I own everything that I have, but I don't have gifts. that aren't accessible to other people. You know what I like? They, you have your own gifts.
We are all so magical when we can get into that energy.
Erin H. Davis: Absolutely. Just got to tap into it. Dust it off.
Malisa Hepner: Yes. Absolutely. I mean, I wasn't aware, you know, there was some things that I've always known about myself, but other things have come like in just the last six months where I'm like, Oh, because I've turned on to my intuition and my trust.
I listen, I act, I do it. I don't just listen. I then go, okay. I mean, like, that's why I was really loving your last episode on the self trust because for me. It really has helped me lean into surrender and, and the feminine flow because I had to be in control of everything all of the time, or at least feel like I was in control.
I certainly didn't have control over anything, including my own emotions or my thoughts. But now. Just like leaning into this understanding that like, I don't know how, but it's going to be fine. And also, I am best served to one step at a time. Listen to my intuition, which way should I step? Okay, great. Now that I'm here, I will do this step until the next step comes.
Erin H. Davis: Yes. Yeah. And that's kind of how you've helped yourself in this process. And you know, what's so sad is when I get an elderly woman who. Shares her life story and it's like, Oh my gosh, you know, they had an abusive husband who
Malisa Hepner: always had an abusive husband. Yeah.
Erin H. Davis: Beat her or ran around on her or both.
Malisa Hepner: And
Erin H. Davis: they were the ones who were forced to quit their jobs, who were forced to take care of the kids and they had no way out.
They weren't financially. Confident, I guess you could say to do things on their own and yeah, and I imagine there are a lot of women out there, even in our generation that feel stuck or trapped, or they don't know how to trust themselves. So what would you say is like the first step in this? What is the evolution of learning to give yourself more credit?
Malisa Hepner: I would say literally the first step is to make the decision like, yeah, I'm going to try not I'm hoping, but like I make the decision that from here on out, even when it's not perfect, even when it's messy, I'm going to love myself and I'm going to learn how to love myself as I go. But this is the one decision that I'm going to make.
And then. Again, you just reconfirm the decision. I mean, there's oftentimes, you can hear me on episode very recently. I have, oh yes, it just released last week where I was talking to somebody who's had a ton of success in her writing, like big, and I said, [00:25:00] yeah, you know, so I'm an author and she's like, oh, you are, and I was like, well, I mean, And then I stopped and I was like, yes, I am.
I am an author because for a second I was like, I mean, not like you, like I haven't had like, you know what I mean? Like whatever. I mean, yes, I've published a book and blah, blah, blah. But like in my eyes, like you, you're the, the thing I'm trying to be in terms of success for writing. So like, I'm not like you, but then I was like, yes, I am.
Shush, but I revised it right there on the spot and I said, I'm sorry. Yes, I am an author and blah, blah, blah, you know, and I, yeah, all the time. And I'm not afraid that's, that's an area of vulnerability that I'm not really afraid of.
Erin H. Davis: Awesome. You know what that reminds me of? It reminds me of, again, those program programming messages of how parents are saying, don't make other people feel bad.
So do you think that's part of it? Like you can't give in those conversations sometimes we're not giving ourselves The credit that's due because we're afraid we're going to make someone else uncomfortable.
Malisa Hepner: Well, sure. Yeah. Well, because or, or that, yeah. Like, um, am I making a weird comparison to say I'm also a writer when you're actually a quote unquote successful writer?
Like, you know, like, yeah. How many things are we doing without understanding that we are actually. Caring about what the other person involved thinks or feels or acts when it really has nothing to do with us. Like that saying, what other people think about you is none of your business. When I really like started just affirming myself with that over and over and over, eventually it made sense.
At first it felt like a lie, but I just was like, okay, I cannot, because that was my number one thing. Oh my God, they're going to think I'm a bad mom. And then this, and then this, and then this nonstop, nonstop. And, um, I, I was a, I was bound by those types of thoughts and so, yeah, my entire existence was surrounded by the need to make sure that everybody else was comfortable in the sense that they liked me, that I was pleasing them.
You know, I mean, people pleasing is the same as saying like, you need to be comfortable and I don't, I, my needs don't matter.
Erin H. Davis: That's,
Malisa Hepner: and that's essentially what you're saying. Every single time you go to do something that is inauthentic to you, to make somebody else more comfortable.
Erin H. Davis: Yeah. And the people pleasing is so real.
And that's like. Almost again, like what's expected for women.
Malisa Hepner: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, no wonder we're burning out. Someone put it in a way that really finally made sense to me. They say, okay, when a car burns out, it's because they've gone far, like they've used more gas than the tank had. So what are you, you know, and I always picture that backfire, you know, like in a yes.
And that is what I felt because I didn't know how to exist on this planet for me only, because even as moms, I mean, we're taught like your kids come first and blah, blah, blah. And I received so much resistance when I started to say. I put myself above them too, because if I have to take care of them, I got to be a good person to be able to take care of them.
And it's not a popular opinion. It's not. But it's not like I'm like, if one of us has to eat, I'm choosing me. Like, we're not in that kind of situation. But it's more like, mom, can you play this game with me? If I don't have that to give and I go sit and try. I promise you they're going to wish they hadn't.
I mean that I want to be that person, but that is who I am. And I've reached capacity. That is that. And I'm getting comfortable with disappointing them because that's the thing I hate the worst is disappointing my children, but I'm learning how to sit with them in their disappointment. Whenever it's me that caused it.
Erin H. Davis: Yeah. Wow. That takes a lot of strength as well. And thinking about how other people. Either perceive you personally or just for the woman who is afraid of how people judge her. You know what I am noticing recently is that there are a lot of women who are terrified of thinking that other people view them as a narcissist.
Have you ever felt that? Really? Yeah.
Malisa Hepner: Well, okay. That's interesting. Cause I would say that would, that, that happened to me on a personal level feeling like that. Yes. I haven't had, I haven't had any clients really say that. So that's interesting, but I'm not surprised either, because if you're around a bunch of people who don't take accountability for their actions,
Erin H. Davis: it's
Malisa Hepner: easy to see all this material that we have.
Narcissism is a word that's thrown around all the time now. So it's easy for someone to be on a tick talk and see it and be like, Oh, yeah, [00:30:00] that applies, that applies to them. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So I haven't had any like clients say that but I mean I remember texting my friends because My someone in my life was calling me a narcissist a bunch for a minute years ago.
And I was like, guys, do you think I'm a narcissist? And they were like, okay, so here's the thing. Um, if you were, you would not even ask yourself that.
Erin H. Davis: Exactly.
Malisa Hepner: And I was like, thank you so much for that. But the truth is I did have a ton of narcissistic traits because I was very wounded and raised by a narcissist.
So I had a lot of the traits, but Not a narcissist, but, um, being surrounded by people who don't want to take accountability. I mean, their conversations are their confession. So of course they're going to call you that, you know?
Erin H. Davis: Yeah. Well, and at least with these women, that's just one version of them feeling like they're a bad person.
Malisa Hepner: And it's like, why, why, why are you a narcissist? Because you want to love yourself because you want to say no, because you don't have anything else to give. Well, yeah, I mean, because I think what they're actually hearing is you're selfish. And, um, if we could rebrand that word, if we could rebrand selfish, yes.
Make it mean the best thing ever. How How liberating would that be for all women? If we could take that one word and just completely turn it on its head and be like, selfish is good. Selfish means I am full of self that I took all those holes from childhood and filled them with so much love and compassion for myself that, yeah, hell yeah, I'm putting myself first because the more I do that, the more love and compassion I can show to others.
It was not. I
Erin H. Davis: know.
Malisa Hepner: I met me deep in the recesses of who I am, that I could meet others where they are. You can only meet people at your current level of healing. So you're full of all of those holes. You are no good to anyone, least of all yourself. But hell yeah, I'm selfish.
Erin H. Davis: Yeah. Yeah. And it seems like.
They have tried to use and I say they in like society tried to use self care as that version of like coming into yourself. But that's not
Malisa Hepner: right. Like, getting your nails done and stuff. And I'm like, baby, that's not it. That's pampering and we need it. We need it. We need it. There's a space for that. But, you know, even I, as a therapist.
Really had to sit and be like, I don't know how to take care of myself, but you know, like what, what do I need? Because I was so turned off to who I was. I couldn't recognize sensations in my body for what they were. Now, when something comes up, I know exactly what I need because I've. I've listened and I've acted over and over and over.
I turned on to my voice and my voice lets me know all kinds of things. But if you are walking around with your entire existence being to serve others, you have no idea what you need and when, and it's far more than a pedicure.
Erin H. Davis: Mm hmm. Yeah. And how would you advise a woman who is super self conscious about the way other people see her?
Like she's worried about upsetting someone. She's worried about making her partner mad. How do you coach them or? You know, support them through that.
Malisa Hepner: Well, a couple of things I make sure they understand that that is an archaic type of shame, that that is a sneaky way that shame comes in and says we have to achieve more to be worthy of love and belonging,
Erin H. Davis: and
Malisa Hepner: we have to uphold a certain image to be.
Worthy of love and belonging, and that is just shame and it is lying. And so when you can confront a lie with the truth, that helps. I mean, when you say is, where's the truth? Where did I learn that? Where, why, why do I feel like that's what makes me worthy of love and belonging? For me, it was such an easy answer.
My grandma was a narcissist. You know, like, oh, she programmed me to believe that I had to, my, I didn't have as much of, um, the achievement one. Mine really was caring about how I was perceived. Like way too much. And so that was actually the key to my freedom was, baby, that's just an archaic type of shame.
It's not the truth. That's not your voice. That's not you. Wow. That's your grandma. Turn it off. Now, what do you say? And, and me in any present grounded moment knows the difference, but me triggered and living through this childhood trauma in my brain, you [00:35:00] know, these loud narratives that we're just recycling over and over.
Yeah. I mean, I thought that was my voice. I thought this was just a bunch of self talk. That was my grandma. My voice says, Hey, you don't have to worry about that. And again, I'll reconfirm the decision over and over.
Erin H. Davis: Yeah. I kind of wonder if in the older generations, you know, you hear about narcissistic moms and, but I wonder if all of that is just a by product of.
The generational traumas, the generational conditioning of you don't have a voice. You don't matter because this has gone on since the beginning of time.
Malisa Hepner: Absolutely. And that's why like the older I get and the more evolved through this process, I get the more love and compassion I'm finding for those women
Erin H. Davis: who
Malisa Hepner: ruined an entire generation.
That's fine. Um, but I do think, I think about them in their childhoods. And I know, I know, I know their pain and, and that is why I feel a duty to myself and future generations, but also the past generations, because they carried us here, whether they did a great job of it or not, they were doing their best.
They really were. We don't have to say it was good enough. We don't have to say anything. What they did now no longer has anything to do with me now going forward. But I, I do feel like the women of the past deserve us to heal and offer that ancestral healing because. They did go through so much and, and I don't like to compare traumas, but I do know they had even less freedom than we do.
And we have a lot of freedom, but we have a lot of ways that men are still removing our power, obviously, especially in the political climate, but whatever. But like, imagine, imagine a person in their eighties. Now what? Four year old version of them was going through that really, I look at their inner child.
That's the only way I can have compassion because them in their current state, they're kind of mean and whatever, but like, I know where it came from. So yeah, the more though that you can meet yourself, the more you can see like, Oh, you know what? My great grandma was just like me. She was just like me. And.
If all of us in this present day are walking around with the exact same narratives as one another, they were too, only it was a thousand times worse. Yeah, they were a lot more. Because they didn't have people around to talk
Erin H. Davis: to. Yes. They just had to be
Malisa Hepner: perfect.
Erin H. Davis: I know. And, you know, and hearing more about women's history and all the things, I mean, it's scary like how suppressed they were.
Yes. I mean, they, they were the last ones to be able to vote. And women were also not allowed to have a credit card without a co signer, literally until like the eighties or nineties. Yeah.
Malisa Hepner: There's so many things. Yeah. Yeah. And imagine. I mean, I don't want to imagine too much actually, cause it's not good for your subconscious, but I, I just, I do, I think about those experiences and like, if I, I mean, cause like, I've always kind of been the alpha in my relationship, so like, I cannot even imagine being in a situation where a man had that much power over me, really?
Like I, yeah. I think I might have been a revolutionary war starter at that time. If that has been probably, you know, it's probably good. I was born in the generation I was. Cause I mean, I would have, I would have for sure been like burned during the Salem witch trials, but I sure would have, because like, I'd be like you, what?
I'm allowed to play in the forest at night. Thank you for that. I don't care.
Erin H. Davis: Mm hmm. Hilarious. Yeah. Well, and I mean, kudos to you for really finding your voice and following this purpose. And I feel like that's where, you know, another thing for women, it's like, don't follow your passion. I mean, cause passion is like fleeting emotions come and go, but follow your purpose because that's going to give you more fulfillment.
So how has your life changed now that you're pursuing the things that you love? You found purpose in.
Malisa Hepner: Well, I guess probably the biggest way it's changed outwardly is that I've gotten to create a really sweet little bubble around me where I'm not doing things that don't light me up. And so I'm not interacting with a lot of the negativity in the world that I used to, because I'm not around that many people, except for the people that I'm actively choosing to put in front of me.
Erin H. Davis: So that's
Malisa Hepner: probably the, the biggest way outwardly, but I'd say inwardly it's. [00:40:00] Get to grow. I get to spend a lot of time growing every day, because when you're any sort of entrepreneur, you, you, you, there are so many things to overcome within you, it's yes, technology issues. Yes. Whatever. The biggest challenge is overcoming your own brain.
And so I do get this opportunity a lot to sit and look at myself and say. Well, what's something else that could be true in this situation and just like overcome and move through?
Erin H. Davis: And
Malisa Hepner: yeah, just getting to really pour into my own development as well as others and only doing projects that light me up, period.
Because, you know, I, I love to talk about passion and purpose together, being in it to be your most authentic self. But the thing is, is that I think people think, Oh, your purpose, your purpose has to be like what you and I are doing, that we're making a stage for ourselves. We're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Yes. That's, I've always felt that to be my purpose. I have a whole story behind it. Whatever is to be on a stage very literally. For me, that's me. But like, I believe part of your purpose is to, well, I think everyone's parents are going to screw them up. And part of your purpose is to overcome that.
Erin H. Davis: Yeah. I
Malisa Hepner: think your purpose actually is to find that unequivocal love for yourself, the unconditional regard where you say, sometimes I'm the nicest person on earth.
And sometimes I can be really cruel. And sometimes. I'm so hard on myself and other times I lift myself up really high, but all times I matter just as much, nothing reduces how much I matter to myself or others and nothing uses the fact that I am so loved, so worthy and so valuable. Nothing external of me changes anything within me.
And I believe that is the purpose. And however you want to live out that purpose. That's up to you. You can go use that information to share it with others to be like, baby, love yourself. You can go and if you felt like teaching was, was your purpose, you take that love for yourself and you teach those students how the hell to love themselves, you know, like whatever, whatever Avenue you're putting that light in, do it big.
Radiate
Erin H. Davis: love it. That's amazing. And Melissa, where can listeners connect with you or find more about you? I know your podcast. Is it on all platforms? It is. Yeah. Okay. So mostly unavailable
Malisa Hepner: and on Instagram. I have, um, like a link tree that does just the two major platforms of Spotify and Apple for the show.
And then my website is empowered with Melissa Heppner dot org.
Erin H. Davis: Okay, awesome. Well, I'll be sure to put that in the show notes and I really appreciate your time. Was there. Anything else you wanted to share with the listeners?
Malisa Hepner: No, I don't think so, man. I just love this conversation. I appreciate you having me on.
I love getting to connect with others and share the light.
Erin H. Davis: Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you so much.
Malisa Hepner: Ah, have a great day.
Erin H. Davis: You too.
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